Anthony
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Post by Anthony on Oct 13, 2006 19:35:03 GMT 7
Mark and I propose the topic of theism versus atheism.
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kenny
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Post by kenny on Oct 13, 2006 19:38:38 GMT 7
Hmmm. Interesting.
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Joshua
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Post by Joshua on Oct 13, 2006 19:49:24 GMT 7
ok ill debate for theism
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Post by Roger on Oct 13, 2006 20:06:30 GMT 7
I'll support Joshy
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Post by r: G-->GL(V) on Oct 13, 2006 21:05:03 GMT 7
anthony and i agreed to this topic so we could argue coterminously, and yet have opposition. so bring it on.
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kenny
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Post by kenny on Oct 13, 2006 21:59:45 GMT 7
Oooh. Let the debate begin!
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Anthony
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Post by Anthony on Oct 14, 2006 17:12:34 GMT 7
I'll present an introduction.
As freethinkers, Mark and I intend to show to the community through logic and example that belief in a deity is irrational. We will probably usually assume that the deity in question is the Judeo-Christian God.
Our goal is to prove that faith is rejection of reason, that God is the product of imagination, and that religion is the result of history. We agree that theism is superstition restricting the mind. We agree that God did not create man in his own image, but man created god in his own image. We agree that a step to freedom is liberation from dogma.
How shall the discussion begin?
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Joshua
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Post by Joshua on Oct 14, 2006 19:18:36 GMT 7
so as the theists, roger and i will try to prove that a belief in God is rational and spiritually fufilling. we will try to prove that the theoretical award far outweighs the cost of being in a religion, that the universe and life is very unlikely to exist without God, and that to have faith is not a restriction of the mind, but to set a path for believers to follow in life, thus giving oneself spiritual fulfillment. also, we will try to prove that with the beliefs and rules of religion the world can be changed to be a better place.
roger, add more stuff to this.
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Joshua
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Post by Joshua on Oct 14, 2006 19:19:13 GMT 7
oh yes, and the existance of miracles.
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Dan
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Post by Dan on Oct 14, 2006 21:06:58 GMT 7
i think it's hard to debate this unless both the debaters of theists and atheists have read through the Bible thoroughly and be able to draw evidence from it. i can raise some interesting points about genesis
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Post by silentwf on Oct 14, 2006 21:14:58 GMT 7
i think it's hard to debate this unless both the debaters of theists and atheists have read through the Bible thoroughly and be able to draw evidence from it. i can raise some interesting points about genesis Orz not that again = = we did taht debate at kays class last year we didnt end up with anything (but i found some interesting sites that had a forum dedicated to "athiest VS theist" and there were more than 10k topics = =)
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Post by r: G-->GL(V) on Oct 14, 2006 21:33:02 GMT 7
okay. i shall now start my attack.
first of all, god cannot be omniscient. this follows from a set theory paradox which i shall present in brief here: consider the set of all things that can make an object that they cannot lift. if god was in this set, then god would be able to make something he could not lift. contradicion. if god is not in this set, then god isn't all powerful. contradiction. something is either in or not in a set. therefore god does not exist.
secondly, the presence of a god means no free will. if god was omniscient and knew the future, we are powerless to change it. and our "decision" to be charitable and kind or to commit atrocities are already predetermined.
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Post by silentwf on Oct 14, 2006 21:36:39 GMT 7
go mark!!! i saw a funny joke on this stuff dangit, cant find that link
(err...am i allowed to intrude?)
(btw mark...i think we're arguing whether "god exists or not" not "free will")
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Post by r: G-->GL(V) on Oct 14, 2006 22:03:29 GMT 7
im arguing that if god exists, we dont have free will, so its already determined if we go to heaven or hell and we cant change our ways.
which is supposedly doable according the the christian doctrine.
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Anthony
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Post by Anthony on Oct 15, 2006 8:10:53 GMT 7
I'll further this one argument, beginning with the assumption that God exists.
I assume that we're all familiar with the concept of God's Plan, which states that all events in time are part of God's Plan. For the sake of this argument, God's Plan is real, because God is currently assumed to exist.
I assume that we're all familiar with the timeless system of crime and punishment, which condemns acts of violence, theft, and other infringements of the golden rule, providing punishments for felonies. This system is undisputably existent.
God's Plan contradicts crime and punishment. If a man is murdered or a woman is raped, the criminal responsible is merely carrying out God's Plan. He should not be punished at all because he has no say in his predetermined actions. If anything, the criminal should be rewarded as an agent of God for setting the plan into action. He should be rewarded with eternity in heaven for obeying the will of God. Abortions, gay marriages, genocide, terrorism, eating from the Tree of Knowledge, and eternal damnation are all part of God's Plan.
Does this make sense for an omnibenevolent God? This picture is more malevolent than anything else. We must either accept the omniscient God and his plan, rejecting free will and our own morality, or vice versa. The omniscient Judeo-Christian God is mutually exclusive with morality. Why, then, would Satan or Hell exist? Why would the bible worship God as benevolent? Why do laws and rules exist if all is planned?
By reductio ad absurdum, these contradictions mean that the initial assumption, that God exists, is false.
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